My thoughts and suggestions on the changes

[Nekota]

I'll start with the overall topic of the change. I feel that this change is a really bad idea, and forcing the community to use it instead of voting and discussing the matter before the migration will have a negative result. I suggest an open discussion before a major change that effects many people is made.

**Personal Thoughts**
I personally like the usage of the forums and I haven't yet gotten to doing any planning on any changes, or ideas for the forums but it is in my plans. However, I feel that restriction suggestions to the forums is not the best idea. The success, and rare negative of using the discord for suggestions is the ease of access. To only have to open the discord and immediately write up an idea regardless of where you are and what device you're using, you can very quickly suggest ideas to the community. Many players apart of our community, even many who play on a daily basis don't have a forums account and likely don't want to in the future.

**Benefit vs Negatives**
Pushing community suggestions to the forums does come with useful benefits such as being able to create nicely formatted posts, categorize posts under different tags that suit the focus of the post, or have comments on that post instead of people having multiple conversations in one channel. This however, does still come with the enormous cost of ease of access which is why we see so many suggestions, and why the community is active in suggesting changes and features. There is a link provided in the channel description but, knowing people, that will be forgotten about and it's not viewable on phone. This will result in what is 3 seconds of finding a channel to post content, to up to a minute to find the correct page. I mean, initially when trying to find this page on my own, I went Home > Servers > Communication Servers > Forums which wasn't the correct page, but easily mistakable because it has a discord icon on it. To navigate to the suggestions channel you have to scroll down more than half a page, then click through a series of different subpages which just a lot of effort in comparison to the easily accessible channel the community knows and loves.

Alongside this, the majority of people are used to using discord on a daily basis and it has been the social platform that most communities entirely use - and yes there are some occasional communities that don't use discord - you're requiring new or returning players to subscribe to an entirely different platform they aren't used to. It means that if you're discussing ideas with people in the discord, either through text or voice, the average person will follow the path of:

1: Tab out of discord
2: Open a browser
3: Find the website 
4: Sign in
5: Navigate through multiple pages and search for the page
6: Finally submit the idea
When in comparison you can just click a single channel.

**Forums Issues**
I would like to also add that selecting text that has two different fonts completely broke the website which doesn't quite seem to be a "better way" of creating topics if the small selection of benefits that the forums provide result in bugs and errors. It is day one of this being made the forced requirement for the community, so maybe I'm wrong and this might be highly used. I'm sorry to say, but so far I have a lot of doubt.

**Closing Notes**
I am one who supports change, and I always enjoy seeing features I use on a regular basis become more available, but this is the rare occasion where I believe a change is not for the best of the community. Res benefits the community. While it may make moderation more easy and it may come with a couple of benefits, please don't force it upon people.

[Nekota]

Additional Notes - mobile usage

While I didn’t elaborate on this point in my post, I’ve found more issues I would like to add.

A) Formatting is unavailable, you have Bold, italic, and underline. While on pc, you have the formatting which is essentially the only feature I’ve found that cannot be replicated on discord.

B) You cannot link to past suggestions in your post. On some mobile devices, linking to messages via discord won’t work, meaning that the only way you can reference a message is by quoting it or by screenshotting, when linking is the best available option.  

C) Most users likely don’t have their password saved to your mobile device. This could be due to different browsers, different accounts, or using PC and an iPhone. Password vaults are useful but it’s unlikely the average user remember to do that. 

D) The links in the discord channel description don’t work and aren’t easily found. If you are hoping to find this page, the problem I mentioned in my post is made even worse. 

What makes discord a good platform is that it’s available via pc, and mobile, and this new change is not only a negative one for users, it’s a major disadvantage for mobile users. I don’t want to be negative but I don’t think this is a step towards progress. 

[Menace]

Thank you for your thoughts,

There is so much here I don't have the time to write up a reply worth this post but I won't leave you hanging.

- When it comes to navigation you can just click on it on discord it will take you straight here?

- The forums offers a better structure when it comes to making suggestions.

- You did spend a lot of time talking about formatting your post and yes when it comes to you this is a negative but most of the suggestion aren't formatted. They are just a text suggestion.

- I do agree that convenience is being lost by only allowing suggestions on the forums.

But at the same time if you want to make a suggestion it isn't a big ask to post it on the forums.

This will reduce the amount of suggestion but I don't really see that being a bad thing.

The convenience of discord inflated the suggestions to be honest.

- You did talk about a few feature that don't exist on the forums and over time we will actually see what the issue are and aren't.

- I'll look in to that font issue

@ Higashi will have to get back to you at a later date.

[Higashi]

Hey there Nekota, thankyou for your post. I am going to cut right to chase of this post and just say that it is very unlikely that we will be reverting back to the discord, and the cut end of this argument is that discord is simple and easy to post, while forums you have to navigate. Whilst I have agreed with the fact that discord is the most simple form of suggesting things for the community, and I have been on that argument for well over a year, I have been A staff, a developer now a member of forum management and I can strongly say that Forum Suggesting is the single best form of documentation, information and resolving ideas and posts.

I will go through this and explain my reasoning of moving all suggestions to the forums, but just a side thing to note, this change wasnt something we immediately released to the community. Wookie had this planned for half a year and announced it on occasion to the community, this is not something new, but rather an inevitability.

The pros:

• Documentation of suggestions
  • Forums provide a wealth of simplicity and mark a great deal of information and documentation for both users and staff alike. By using the forums we make it easier for duplicant suggestions to be created and for users to find a suggestion in a matter of seconds.
• The unlikelihood of shitposting
  • By adding just an extra step we have almost eliminated most shitposting on the forums, and if someone does shitpost, its a matter of hiding the thread and warning the user. You have absolutely no idea how many shitposts I personally delete from the discord chat on a weekly basis.
• Steady inflow of suggestions/users
  • There's two points to this, yes the forums is one step harder to do, but it provides a simple steady stream of suggestions that menace and birb (suggestion resolver person) can easily manage. It also provides a steady stream of users to said forums to actually use it for the future.
• Easy management of suggestions (Approve, Pending, Deny)
• Almost eliminates 10 word suggestions that provide no input towards anything ("Delete this because bad")

The cons:

• Players don't like taking the extra step
• You have to open up the forum and navigate your mouse to the menu manager and click on TTT Suggestions
  • 
• I really dont know any other logical arguments for cons besides the fact that users wont like it.

Change is inevitable, and as a hopefully expanding community discord will NOT be the best logical place for community suggestions, forums will. All of this work is to make the development e.g. Menace's life easier, as he is the one that spends a majority of the time sifting and answering suggestions. Some get lost, some are shitposts, some dont answer enough stuff.

All the points you have brought up, while valid, are incomparable to the good forum suggesting will do the community and menaces mental fortitude both present and future. As for the bugs, im sure it will be fixed, no idea how it broke from selecting 2 fonts? And as for mobile devices, im sure me and menace can discuss more support being added.

[Wookie]

So I told myself I wasn't going to log back into this rot hole but holy fuck man, this is bad.

On 7/13/2022 at 3:51 AM, Nekota said:

I'll start with the overall topic of the change. I feel that this change is a really bad idea, and forcing the community to use it instead of voting and discussing the matter before the migration will have a negative result. I suggest an open discussion before a major change that effects many people is made.

Open discussion for something that will knowingly receive terrible feedback (because of laziness on many community members' behalves) is a crap idea, it's not warranted when the outcome is already expected. This was a vetoed decision months in the making purely to make it easier on Menace, he already has a gargantuan task of doing the server, you know he doesn't pay enough attention to everything else so why should his job be even more difficult by needing to sift through a day or two worth of spam in a Discord chat.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 3:51 AM, Nekota said:

I personally like the usage of the forums and I haven't yet gotten to doing any planning on any changes, or ideas for the forums but it is in my plans.

You must be planning a HUGE amount of stuff cause you've said that for six months and never presented anything to me, besides the rank badges of which I only got because most of the work was simple for you/already existed on the previous artwork. I was never presented with any of the other things I asked for to work on the numerous additional plans (additional/redesign of badges, name icons, forums background, etc.)

 

On 7/13/2022 at 3:51 AM, Nekota said:

**Benefit vs Negatives**

This entire paragraph is one great by hyperbole.

1. The link is literally right there in the description, if you're on phone ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is just swipe to the side and BAM, it's right there, all the text and links ready to click on. How do I know? I literally just did it.
2. If even that is too hard, try clicking on ANY of the bot posts in the suggestions chat and again, BAM, you're straight to the forums. It's. That. Easy.
3. If you REALLY can't get it on Discord, try going onto the forums and oh I dunno, click the big ol banner at the top of the page that says "Suggestions" and maybe that'll get you in the right spot

Now if you're really trying to go at a stretch, there is absolutely NOWHERE that says you have to "subscribe" to the forums, wtf? That's the most manipulative language you could ever use to describe "signing up/logging in with Steam"

 

On 7/13/2022 at 3:51 AM, Nekota said:

I would like to also add that selecting text that has two different fonts completely broke the website which doesn't quite seem to be a "better way" of creating topics if the small selection of benefits that the forums provide result in bugs and errors. It is day one of this being made the forced requirement for the community, so maybe I'm wrong and this might be highly used. I'm sorry to say, but so far I have a lot of doubt.

Just tried replicating this with a few different fonts, sounds like a you problem to put it simply, just download some more RAM idk, I've never had that issue from anyone else, couldn't get it myself, I think you've either done something really dumb or you've somehow hacked the Matrix.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 6:45 AM, Nekota said:

A) Formatting is unavailable, you have Bold, italic, and underline. While on pc, you have the formatting which is essentially the only feature I’ve found that cannot be replicated on discord.

It is available, I just tried it and it worked brilliantly. Again, a you problem. Formatting is also something that VERY few people other than yourself would actually do, maybe they'll use bold or underscore, but I doubt they're gonna go hardcore text editor, there's no format minigame achievements so why would they need to?.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 6:45 AM, Nekota said:

B) You cannot link to past suggestions in your post. On some mobile devices, linking to messages via discord won’t work, meaning that the only way you can reference a message is by quoting it or by screenshotting, when linking is the best available option.  

You can put links in any piece of text, what? I really don't understand what you're trying to make here, if you have posted anything at all before and have a link (Discord, forums, literally any other external link), then it can be put in a forums response. Screenshots can also be uploaded, very easily. I'm genuinely confused by this one.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 6:45 AM, Nekota said:

C) Most users likely don’t have their password saved to your mobile device. This could be due to different browsers, different accounts, or using PC and an iPhone. Password vaults are useful but it’s unlikely the average user remember to do that. 

Over 90% of active accounts are Steam, if you forget your Steam password on your PHONE, then you're an idiot. Plain and simple lol. Anyone who doesn't have Steam linked? Veeerrry easy to fix in AdminCP.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 6:45 AM, Nekota said:

D) The links in the discord channel description don’t work and aren’t easily found. If you are hoping to find this page, the problem I mentioned in my post is made even worse. 

They're right on the side of Discord, directly above all other users, if the description is too small just tap on it and voila, they're there. Again, very basic feature of Discord, if it's not showing on your phone then that sucks to be you, but it's in the standard app.

 

On 7/13/2022 at 6:45 AM, Nekota said:

What makes discord a good platform is that it’s available via pc, and mobile, and this new change is not only a negative one for users, it’s a major disadvantage for mobile users. I don’t want to be negative but I don’t think this is a step towards progress. 

Phone forums and PC forums are pretty well the same thing with essential features, slightly different interfaces but it's all still there, idk what you're talking about here. I feel like you're grasping at straws for reasons for this to not stay as it is, just because you're SO used to using Discord in all your other communities, so in return you're also SO much against using the forums here.

 

This whole thing was mulled over for half a year, yes there was bound to be a lot of community upset, and yeah there's a fair bit of change, but realistically the only thing that should be done differently is for a bot to add +1 and -1 reacts (which is a piece of piss to setup for anyone who can actually use bots), and it'll be right as rain.

Otherwise, it's exactly where it should be, the Discord shouldn't be relied upon so heavily for such vital features of the community, and the previous alternative (let people use both) saw the forums receive no use, this way people are forced to use the forums and go outside of the usual comfort zone, which allows for valuable pieces of feedback rather than just straight up denials for why it's oh so (not very) much more inconvenient.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Wookie

[Remy]

Admins won't listen to player suggestions at this point it's a losing battle with the clear dictatorships that is being shown today worth a shot though.

[Menace]

8 hours ago, Remy said:

Admins won't listen to player suggestions at this point it's a losing battle with the clear dictatorships that is being shown today worth a shot though.

We always listen to feed back, just because some loud people don't like the change doesn't mean we are dictators.

Making changes that benefit the community members and the staff is sometimes a give/take relationship.

The community members needs can't always be put first over the needs of staff.

Some community members want it to work a certain way I can understand that. But just because we decided we what it on the forums doesn't mean we don't listen. it means we have weight the pros and cons and believe this is the best approach.

If it doesn't work we are always open to change.

You guys only have one perspective your own. You can't or ignore the other side of things so just wait it out if this is the wrong move it will be corrected in time.

I'm not saying you can't complain just don't over step when it comes to what you call the staff.

It makes staffing a community harder then it already is when some of the negativity is baseless claims.

@ Wookie  Thanks